HyperCard Mailing List

As others have stated, the group of technologies and programing environments one has to encompass in order to do anything on the web is much more complicated then HyperCard.

There are probably more people out in the world today who could use a program like HyperCard today. The problem is that they are a smaller minority of 'computer users' today then they were in the late 1980s.

LiveCard isn't such a program. It is HyperCard on steroids and like the 110 lb. weakling who eats them, is now a +200 lb., muscle bound and starting to become awkward because of his size.

Michael

On Oct 30, 2012, at 9:43 AM, D <dannygelder@[redacted].com wrote:

>> What is lacking today is a programing environment (small p no quotes) which captures the simplicity and functionality of HyperCard.
>
> Web.
>
>> I don't understand your thought experiment.
>
> Open a blank browser window. Mentally choose New Button and New Field, drag the new parts around, double click them to choose icons. Pretend it has persistence and everything you make is autosaved. Now you have Hypercard user level 3. Is it genuinely useful now in the way it was? Or has the world changed and this is not valuable? Perhaps you can find a philosophical midpoint?
>
>
>
>

> might one question if this is the wrong place to be to
> learn about HC, rather than to be repeatedly advised not to use it?

You said you were a beginner and seemed to be asking for general advice, so
that's what we gave you. But if you have specific questions about using
HC we'll be glad to help you.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Dan,

I *see* the usefulness of what you describe. It is still too complex to create dynamic web sites, even with Content Management Systems like Drupal. It would be *so* sweet to be able to build dynamic websites as easily as I could craft HyperCard stacks. Databases are powerful but they don't allow one to manage data as powerfully/effortlessly as you can with stacks and HyperTalk. I could do anything I wished, with HC, limited only by my imagination; with Drupal and PHP I'm still struggling after 3 years. Stuff that used to be easy is often too complex with Drupal, PHP, Javascript, & so-on. Javascript won't be swept away but it sure could be easier. What-if we had a script language akin to HyperTalk that compiles-on-save into Javascript? For things JS cannot do we could invoke on server-side (via AJAX).

What a thrill it would be!  :-)

Alain

It would be really sweet if XION were able to be invoked from a web page.

With the Rev Media plugin one Can make stacks which are viewable on the web.. But the plugin has little penetration so far.
Also revhosting lets one invoke transcript (hypertalk).

and yeah, it's kinda lame that 20 years later HTM+CSS+Javascript+Java are still way more complicated than hypercard. I have looked at Eclipse and NetBeans and so far Yaldex is the only IDE that is even close to hypercard.

:(



--- On Fri, 11/2/12, Alain Farmer <alain_farmer@[redacted].com wrote:

From: Alain Farmer <alain_farmer@[redacted].com
Subject: Re: [HC] Re: Steve Jobs
To: "HyperCard-Mailing-List" <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
Date: Friday, November 2, 2012, 12:49 AM

> KISS! Keep it Simple

Using an outdated program that has many limitations isn't "keep it simple".


I'm honestly not sure why you seem so determined to use HyperCard for your
business. Is it because it's free?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What's that method of fishing where one or more fishing lines, baited with lures or bait fish, are drawn through the water?

Michael
On Nov 2, 2012, at 1:57 PM, hcheaven@[redacted].comwrote:

>> KISS! Keep it Simple
>
> Using an outdated program that has many limitations isn't "keep it simple".
>
>
> I'm honestly not sure why you seem so determined to use HyperCard for your
> business. Is it because it's free?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>

On Oct 31, 2012, at 2:37 PM, Gene Henley <mhenley2@[redacted].net wrote:
> To put it another way,are you (sotto voce),
> really advocating kick HC to the curb and get on with using these alternatives? My "liking" software is directly
> proportional to its utility for me.

Everyone here loves HyperCard, so he's not being facetious. We simply don't know what you are planning to do. HyperCard has been discontinued. Apple is no longer selling it, and computers it runs on natively (and the operating system it needs to run on them) are also no longer being sold and are becoming rarer.

He was simply trying to prevent someone who might have heard about HyperCard and wasn't aware of that of trying to invest in something that has no future. Every year, old HyperCard boxes are thrown away, HyerCard 3.5in disks de-magnetize and are thrown away. If you built a successful business on HyperCard, you wouldn't be able to keep up with your market's growth if you had to buy up used PowerMacs, and HyperCard boxes to be sure you had legal licenses. There aren't that many left.

FWIW, if you're looking for alternatives, I'm keeping a list of links to the available commercial HyperCard alternatives on http://hypercard.org (along with links to all the open source stuff that's out there etc.)

Cheers,
-- Uli Kusterer
"The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
http://www.zathras.de

----- Original Message -----
From: Uli Kusterer
To: HyperCard-Mailing-List
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [HC] Steve Jobs



On Oct 31, 2012, at 2:37 PM, Gene Henley <mhenley2@[redacted].net wrote:
> To put it another way,are you (sotto voce),
> really advocating kick HC to the curb and get on with using these alternatives? My "liking" software is directly
> proportional to its utility for me.

Everyone here loves HyperCard, so he's not being facetious. We simply don't know what you are planning to do. HyperCard has been discontinued. Apple is no longer selling it, and computers it runs on natively (and the operating system it needs to run on them) are also no longer being sold and are becoming rarer.<<<<<<<<<<
==================================================================================================================

He was simply trying to prevent someone who might have heard about HyperCard and wasn't aware of that of trying to invest in something that has no future. Every year, old HyperCard boxes are thrown away, HyerCard 3.5in disks de-magnetize and are thrown away. <<<

His official biography ("Steve Jobs" by Walter Isaacson) is excellent. I
have the iBooks version on my iPad so I was able to do a text search, and
there is no mention of HyperCard.

But that's not surprising because Steve wasn't at Apple during most of
HyperCard's history. Steve left Apple in 1985 and the first version of HyperCard
wasn't released until 1987.

When Steve returned to Apple over 10 years later, HyperCard was fading in
popularity and Apple was in terrible financial trouble. Steve was given a
demo of HyperCard 3.0 (which was still under development) and he cancelled it
as part of his effort to simplify Apple's lineup.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> restricting users to canned software rather than
> empowering them to explore and create their own

But I think the world has changed since those days. In the early days of
HyperCard there was less Mac software available, so the appeal of making your
own checkbook-balancing program (or whatever) was stronger than today. Plus
the internet was in a relatively primitive state back then. One early HC
stack that was very popular was a Star Trek database. Today folks would just
visit a Star Trek website.

And users still have the option to make their own software if they purchase
applications like Filemaker, SuperCard, LiveCard, etc .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, the idea of (that level of) making your own software has changed. Nowadays it's called publishing your own web site. There is probably a market out there for a simpler self-publishing solution, but it might be better served with free Google tools anyway. I'm not convinced the stack model has anything on the web model.

Beyond publishing, of course, people are doing cool things, but HyperTalk was never a good language for programming. It's certainly not going to push out Javascript at this point. As a thought experiment, consider a web site that autosaves your work as you drag buttons and fields onto the page. What is the utility of that now?

Dan

--- In HyperCard-Mailing-List, hcheaven@... wrote:
>
> > restricting users to canned software rather than
> > empowering them to explore and create their own
>
> But I think the world has changed since those days. In the early days of
> HyperCard there was less Mac software available, so the appeal of making your
> own checkbook-balancing program (or whatever) was stronger than today. Plus
> the internet was in a relatively primitive state back then. One early HC
> stack that was very popular was a Star Trek database. Today folks would just
> visit a Star Trek website.
>
> And users still have the option to make their own software if they purchase
> applications like Filemaker, SuperCard, LiveCard, etc .
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On 10/29/12 9:06 AM, D wrote:

> Beyond publishing, of course, people are doing cool things, but
> HyperTalk was never a good language for programming. It's certainly
> not going to push out Javascript at this point. As a thought
> experiment, consider a web site that autosaves your work as you drag
> buttons and fields onto the page. What is the utility of that now?

I think we need to make a distinction between the language and the IDE.
Auto-save was an IDE behavior, while the language itself is capable of
almost any type of programming.

The LiveCode engine has been wrapped into a server product, for example,
which allows you to write web pages in xtalk instead of php. There is
utility in that.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque@[redacted].comHyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

HyperCard reduced the complexity of programing by a couple of orders of magnitude. Things could get clunky and if the metaphor of the card was pushed would. But things were doable which weren't in any reasonable time with the tools available then.

HyperTalk was an excellent tool for doing what I needed. I don't think it was ever meant to be a good capital P and quotes "Programing" language. It is certainly lacking in today's environment.

What is lacking today is a programing environment (small p no quotes) which captures the simplicity and functionality of HyperCard.

I don't understand your thought experiment.

Michael

On Oct 29, 2012, at 9:06 AM, D <dannygelder@[redacted].com wrote:

> Yes, the idea of (that level of) making your own software has changed. Nowadays it's called publishing your own web site. There is probably a market out there for a simpler self-publishing solution, but it might be better served with free Google tools anyway. I'm not convinced the stack model has anything on the web model.
>
> Beyond publishing, of course, people are doing cool things, but HyperTalk was never a good language for programming. It's certainly not going to push out Javascript at this point. As a thought experiment, consider a web site that autosaves your work as you drag buttons and fields onto the page. What is the utility of that now?
>
> Dan
>
> --- In HyperCard-Mailing-List, hcheaven@... wrote:
>>
>>> restricting users to canned software rather than
>>> empowering them to explore and create their own
>>
>> But I think the world has changed since those days. In the early days of
>> HyperCard there was less Mac software available, so the appeal of making your
>> own checkbook-balancing program (or whatever) was stronger than today. Plus
>> the internet was in a relatively primitive state back then. One early HC
>> stack that was very popular was a Star Trek database. Today folks would just
>> visit a Star Trek website.
>>
>> And users still have the option to make their own software if they purchase
>> applications like Filemaker, SuperCard, LiveCard, etc .
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>

> What is lacking today is a programing environment (small p no quotes) which captures the simplicity and functionality of HyperCard.

Web.

> I don't understand your thought experiment.

Open a blank browser window. Mentally choose New Button and New Field, drag the new parts around, double click them to choose icons. Pretend it has persistence and everything you make is autosaved. Now you have Hypercard user level 3. Is it genuinely useful now in the way it was? Or has the world changed and this is not valuable? Perhaps you can find a philosophical midpoint?

--- In HyperCard-Mailing-List, "D" <dannygelder@...> wrote:
>
> > What is lacking today is a programing environment (small p no quotes) which captures the simplicity and functionality of HyperCard.
>
> Web.
>
> > I don't understand your thought experiment.
>
> Open a blank browser window. Mentally choose New Button and New Field, drag the new parts around, double click them to choose icons. Pretend it has persistence and everything you make is autosaved. Now you have Hypercard user level 3. Is it genuinely useful now in the way it was? Or has the world changed and this is not valuable? Perhaps you can find a philosophical midpoint?
>

First of all, the modern web is far too complex for an 'average joe' to do anything more than make an awful looking page full of links to (hopefully) less awful looking pages. The learning curve of html + css + javascript is in an entirely different realm than that of HyperCard.

So.. what if we made the web so easy anybody could do it? Well, I think that is called Facebook. A locked down "fill in the blanks, dummy" environment where only corporate interests deliver "apps" (and most of those exist solely for harvesting your info).

Here's a thought experiment for you.. imagine a world where HyperCard was not only allowed to live, but was something Apple invested in. Imagine every iThing out there providing an easy to use open canvas instead delivering a system designed around driving people into one corporate controlled environment or another.

"Oh, but not everybody needs to create software, that's just for the elite nerds of the world".. Well, how do we know that exactly? How do we know what wonderful things might exist if instead of merely consuming packaged content, the average guy might actually sometimes create something unique? HyperCard was behind some very original software from non-traditional sources, stuff not seen elsewhere even to this day in some cases. It never even had a fair chance to show us what might have been.

Never let some company (or government) decide what we want or need, instead decide for yourself.. at least that's my opinion. HyperCard was a relatively primitive tool but it was a very decent attempt at what is a very noble goal (imho). Imagine what HC might look like today after so many years of refinement and enhancement and given the tremendously more capable machines we have. (I'm not saying there aren't modern incarnations that deliver some of that, but without Apple's backing and distribution the entire concept of user created software fizzled).

There was a time when the common reasoning was that common folks didn't need no readin' or 'rithmetic. For a while the church even convinced people that God intended only priests would be literate. I honestly fear that we are currently entering the modern day equivalent , as massive corporations create products for people that think they don't need to know how they work or how to program them. As computers continue to become more complex, it is a shame that Apple abandoned their effort to leverage their power directly into the hands of typical people and instead decided to capitalize by (in no small part) keeping their hands tied and their wallets out.

$0.02

> IF HC has little productive use,and IF there is little
> hope for fine tuning to productive usefulness,THEN
> I wonder why I expend the energy.

As Alain said, HC will run on older Macs or on newer ones with an emulator.
So if you like HC and can get it running on your system, then certainly
you can use it.

The downside is that you're using software which was very cool in its day
but is now outdated and little-used. Maybe that's not a concern for the
uses you have in mind, but you might want to check out the modern alternatives
before investing a lot of time in it.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Duly noted. I will evaluate " outdated and little used"( By users?),as well as " like HC,etc.,.........,then can use it."
I try to keep things I do in coherent order. i.e., check whether or not HC is still "cool",in its day.(What day?),and
determine for myself why I check more "modern alternatives" before in vesting a lot of time". I thank you for your
opinion, but ask you if you agree that this " lot of time" is subjective? To put it another way,are you (sotto voce),
really advocating kick HC to the curb and get on with using these alternatives? My "liking" software is directly
proportional to its utility for me.My agenda is to find out. I have good peripheral vision.
This also applies to my perceived rush to judgment about OS`s and computer models. I have several Macs,from
7200 to MDD. My Os`s are 9.2 through Tiger. I have one Dell with XP. I belong to Mac local clubs as well as PC.
Also,I am member of several forums. Common to both PC and MAC meetings is" Would you keep a car with worn
out engine as your prime vehicle? Upgrade! Are you satisfied with old and slow?"

Cheers
Gene Henley



From: hcheaven@[redacted].com
To: HyperCard-Mailing-List
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:23 PM
Subject: [HC] Re: Steve Jobs



> IF HC has little productive use,and IF there is little
> hope for fine tuning to productive usefulness,THEN
> I wonder why I expend the energy.

As Alain said, HC will run on older Macs or on newer ones with an emulator.
So if you like HC and can get it running on your system, then certainly
you can use it.

The downside is that you're using software which was very cool in its day
but is now outdated and little-used. Maybe that's not a concern for the
uses you have in mind, but you might want to check out the modern alternatives
before investing a lot of time in it.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I will evaluate " outdated and little used" ( By users?)...

I love HyperCard, but it's an outdated, discontinued program. It doesn't
even run on modern Macs except in emmulation, and few people use it these
days. But if you want to use it, great, go for it. It can still be fun and can
still be useful.

> check whether or not HC is still "cool",in its day. (What day?)

HyperCard's height of popularity was about 20 years ago (late 1980s and
early 1990s).

Jim

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dunbarx2000 makes a good point. If you've used HC for years, then it can
make sense to continue using it. But a new user should consider modern
alternatives before deciding.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]