HyperCard Mailing List

Hi,

I've been hard at work for the last couple years working on a HyperCard clone. It is still far from finished, but it's in a state where you can actually see most of the foundations already and it's just incomplete and buggy. If any of you are interested in helping in its development, I'd be very interested. There is a web site here:

https://stacksmith.org

There is a large variety of skills that would be helpful, not just limited to programming. There's a list on the web site. If you feel you could help, or you know someone who might be interested, why not let them know? :-)

Cheers,
-- Uli Kusterer
"The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
https://stacksmith.com

I'm in !
Alain Farmer, Montreal.

From: "Uli Kusterer Witness.of.TeachText@[redacted].net[HyperCard]" <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard-Mailing-List
Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2016 5:27 AM
Subject: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?

  Hi,

I've been hard at work for the last couple years working on a HyperCard clone. It is still far from finished, but it's in a state where you can actually see most of the foundations already and it's just incomplete and buggy. If any of you are interested in helping in its development, I'd be very interested. There is a web site here:

https://stacksmith.org

There is a large variety of skills that would be helpful, not just limited to programming. There's a list on the web site. If you feel you could help, or you know someone who might be interested, why not let them know? :-)

Cheers,
-- Uli Kusterer
"The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
https://stacksmith.com

Uli:



I have been with HC since 1987. I was provincial in my outlook, all through Supercard, toolBook, etc.


I started with LiveCode eight years ago. i still touted HC as the original, the venerated, the real deal.


I still maintain a handful of HC stacks in my company, and still work them regularly.


But LC is the very thing you are trying to build. You surely know all about it. So my question to you is this: what can you create that LC is not already? I understand this as a labor of love. But as an alternative???


Craig Newman



-----Original Message-----
From: Uli Kusterer Witness.of.TeachText@[redacted].net[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
Sent: Sat, May 7, 2016 5:28 am
Subject: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?






Hi,

I've been hard at work for the last couple years working on a HyperCard clone. It is still far from finished, but it's in a state where you can actually see most of the foundations already and it's just incomplete and buggy. If any of you are interested in helping in its development, I'd be very interested. There is a web site here:

https://stacksmith.org

There is a large variety of skills that would be helpful, not just limited to programming. There's a list on the web site. If you feel you could help, or you know someone who might be interested, why not let them know? :-)

Cheers,
-- Uli Kusterer
"The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
https://stacksmith.com

Hi Craig,
I cannot speak for Uli, of-course, but for me it is making our xCard as EASY as can be.
I started using MetaCard back in 1995; and I have been using RunRev/Livecode for about a decade.
Hats-off to Runtime: they stuck it out, all of this time,
and are still going strong, as evidenced by their new release (8.0).
But...
This may have to be revized, because I haven't seen 8.0 yet,but let's face it: it is still complex to use.
I am keenly aware of this, particularly at this time,because I'm teaching some people how to use Livecode,and, given that it is their first exposure to any xCard,they are overwhelmed.
Back in the HyperCard days,I would have them read one of my MANY HyperCard books,but all we have is Livecode's dictionary and some overly-simple examples.
The dictionary contains very few examples,the examples don't cover all of the possibilities,and they are generally one-liners (no elaborate examples).
Of-course all that I have spoken-of herecan and should-be done for/with Livecode.
But Livecode's interface is also very complex.I have been using it, for over 10 years,
and there are still MANY checkboxes/etc that I have no-clue what they do.
The menus and panes of the object-info dialog are too many and too obtuse.Some of the panes: I have no clue what they do. Entire panes!
The images and patterns of the color-picking pane is buggy: crashes LC-app.The graphics, everywhere, are retro, pitiful, and un-professional looking.Livecode needs a serious facelift.
Agreed that we have FAR-MORE features than in the eighties.But we must not sacrifice ease and intuitiveness in the process of evolving.
We need:* Docs* Lots of examples
* Tutorials with graduated degree of complexity.* Refactoring of the GUI: palettes, dialogs, menus ...* Facelift* Etc
What is your motivation/s, Uli ?
Are you considering joining us, Craig ?
Regards,
Alain

From: "DunbarX@[redacted].com[HyperCard]" <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard-Mailing-List
Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2016 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?

  Uli:

I have been with HC since 1987. I was provincial in my outlook, all through Supercard, toolBook, etc.
I started with LiveCode eight years ago. i still touted HC as the original, the venerated, the real deal.
I still maintain a handful of HC stacks in my company, and still work them regularly.
But LC is the very thing you are trying to build. You surely know all about it. So my question to you is this: what can you create that LC is not already? I understand this as a labor of love. But as an alternative???
Craig Newman

-----Original Message-----
From: Uli Kusterer Witness.of.TeachText@[redacted].net[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
Sent: Sat, May 7, 2016 5:28 am
Subject: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?

  Hi,

I've been hard at work for the last couple years working on a HyperCard clone. It is still far from finished, but it's in a state where you can actually see most of the foundations already and it's just incomplete and buggy. If any of you are interested in helping in its development, I'd be very interested. There is a web site here:

https://stacksmith.org

There is a large variety of skills that would be helpful, not just limited to programming. There's a list on the web site. If you feel you could help, or you know someone who might be interested, why not let them know? :-)

Cheers,
-- Uli Kusterer
"The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
https://stacksmith.com

I agree with Uli's goals for this.

LiveCode may continue to be the dominant 'upgrade' to HyperCard, but there
is definitely a need for a re-imagined HyperCard, without the baggage and
cumbersome things that have become outdated over time. A good example of
this would be Uli's thoughts in a message to this group on 23/11/2013
entitled "A script editor without scripts, that learns".

The one thing that is putting me off from helping further with this at the
moment, is the fact that it is Mac only. This, I fear, is a fairly large
barrier to adoption - although Mac usage is increasing. Any ways round this
/ thoughts on this?

Despite the above, Stacksmith is a HUGE step in the right direction towards
a modern-day HyperCard. I look forward to see what the future will hold...

On 7 May 2016 at 20:37, Alain Farmer alain_farmer@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <
HyperCard-Mailing-List> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Craig,
>
> I cannot speak for Uli, of-course, but for me it is making our xCard as
> EASY as can be.
>
> I started using MetaCard back in 1995; and I have been using
> RunRev/Livecode for about a decade.
>
> Hats-off to Runtime: they stuck it out, all of this time,
> and are still going strong, as evidenced by their new release (8.0).
>
> But...
>
> This may have to be revized, because I haven't seen 8.0 yet,
> but let's face it: it is still complex to use.
>
> I am keenly aware of this, particularly at this time,
> because I'm teaching some people how to use Livecode,
> and, given that it is their first exposure to any xCard,
> they are overwhelmed.
>
> Back in the HyperCard days,
> I would have them read one of my MANY HyperCard books,
> but all we have is Livecode's dictionary and some overly-simple examples.
>
> The dictionary contains very few examples,
> the examples don't cover all of the possibilities,
> and they are generally one-liners (no elaborate examples).
>
> Of-course all that I have spoken-of here
> can and should-be done for/with Livecode.
>
> But Livecode's interface is also very complex.
> I have been using it, for over 10 years,
> and there are still MANY checkboxes/etc that I have no-clue what they do.
>
> The menus and panes of the object-info dialog are too many and too obtuse..
> Some of the panes: I have no clue what they do. Entire panes!
>
> The images and patterns of the color-picking pane is buggy: crashes LC-app.
> The graphics, everywhere, are retro, pitiful, and un-professional looking..
> Livecode needs a serious facelift.
>
> Agreed that we have FAR-MORE features than in the eighties.
> But we must not sacrifice ease and intuitiveness in the process of
> evolving.
>
> We need:
> * Docs
> * Lots of examples
> * Tutorials with graduated degree of complexity.
> * Refactoring of the GUI: palettes, dialogs, menus ...
> * Facelift
> * Etc
>
> What is your motivation/s, Uli ?
>
> Are you considering joining us, Craig ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Alain
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "DunbarX@[redacted].com[HyperCard]" <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
> *To:* HyperCard-Mailing-List
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 7, 2016 2:52 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?
>
>
> Uli:
>
> I have been with HC since 1987. I was provincial in my outlook, all
> through Supercard, toolBook, etc.
>
> I started with LiveCode eight years ago. i still touted HC as the
> original, the venerated, the real deal.
>
> I still maintain a handful of HC stacks in my company, and still work
> them regularly.
>
> But LC is the very thing you are trying to build. You surely know all
> about it. So my question to you is this: what can you create that LC is not
> already? I understand this as a labor of love. But as an alternative???
>
> Craig Newman
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Uli Kusterer Witness.of.TeachText@[redacted].net[HyperCard] <
> HyperCard-Mailing-List>
> To: HyperCard <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
> Sent: Sat, May 7, 2016 5:28 am
> Subject: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I've been hard at work for the last couple years working on a HyperCard
> clone. It is still far from finished, but it's in a state where you can
> actually see most of the foundations already and it's just incomplete and
> buggy. If any of you are interested in helping in its development, I'd be
> very interested. There is a web site here:
>
> https://stacksmith.org
>
> There is a large variety of skills that would be helpful, not just limited
> to programming. There's a list on the web site. If you feel you could help,
> or you know someone who might be interested, why not let them know? :-)
>
> Cheers,
> -- Uli Kusterer
> "The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
> https://stacksmith.com
>
>
>
>

On 07 May 2016, at 20:52, DunbarX@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List> wrote:
> But LC is the very thing you are trying to build. You surely know all about it. So my question to you is this: what can you create that LC is not already? I understand this as a labor of love. But as an alternative???

LiveCode is mainly the HyperCard from 1987, maybe 1992, extended with features a programmer or a Unix shell scripter would want to have in a programming language, in an IDE. It is very technical, and some aspects are very byzantine: Grouping objects turns them into a background? Commands starting with revBrowser instead of being plain English. Saying "line 3 of the screenrects" instead of "the rectangle of screen 3", that sort of thing.

The idea behind Stacksmith is to take the idea for HyperCard, and to try building it again with today's tools, and today's (much less strict) limitations. While Stacksmith is still very close to how HyperCard used to be at the moment, the idea is not to be compatible with HyperCard. The idea is to behave like a normal Mac application out of the box. With undo, automatic updates etc. (not just Stacksmith itself, but also standalones you will eventually be able to build with Stacksmith). Also, the plan is to eventually grow beyond HyperTalk and do programming in a different way. Less text editor and compiler, more graphical, more involving direct manipulation, more learning from examples than giving instructions.

I've been working on this thing for 10 years on the side, I have no illusions. This is a huge amount of work. But it will be aimed to be much friendlier for non-programmers and beginners.

Cheers,
-- Uli Kusterer
"The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
http://stacksmith.org

On 07 May 2016, at 23:58, Andrew Ferguson andrewferguson500@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List> wrote:
> The one thing that is putting me off from helping further with this at the moment, is the fact that it is Mac only. This, I fear, is a fairly large barrier to adoption - although Mac usage is increasing. Any ways round this / thoughts on this?

The only reason Stacksmith is Mac only is that I don't have the time to do two platforms. That said, I've taken care to write a lot of Stacksmith in straight, portable C++, and am always looking for parts that I can make more portable. If someone comes along and says they want to create a Windows GUI layer for Stacksmith, a lot of the code would probably need little change. There's still a good bunch of platform-specific code in Stacksmith that'd need to be replaced, but that's the part that needs to feel like Windows.

I know that probably won't help much, as until someone actually ports Stacksmith to Windows or Linux, that'll still just be a pipe dream. All I can say is I fully agree that cross-platform is something Stacksmith should eventually be, and if you look at Stacksmith, you can already ask it what platform it is running on, and what OS version. Of course, it'll always say Mac right now... :-)

Alain wrote:
> Hats-off to Runtime: they stuck it out, all of this time,
> and are still going strong, as evidenced by their new release (8.0).

Just let me underline that I fully agree with this. LiveCode 8 is a great step in the right direction. I was one of the people who contributed money to the LiveCode 8 Kickstarter, and I thought long and hard whether I should join development of their open source version. But the issue is that I have a clear idea, and it is late enough that nobody really cares about HyperCard compatibility anymore. Everyone who had an important stack has already moved to SuperCard or LiveCode. LiveCode was compatible, and is carrying around many of the trade-offs made in the 80ies today. They need to, because their customers have stacks that need to keep working.

Stacksmith can change the terms used to avoid misleading people used to current meanings of technical terms. Stacksmith can build in the internet from the ground up (You can upload a Stacksmith project onto a web server and Stacksmith can open it, like a browser opens a web page). Stacksmith has the benefit of hindsight. LiveCode is awesome for what it does, but if I worked on it, I would be subject to their priorities, their needs to keep old stuff running. If they make a decision I don't like, I'd have to leave and do Stacksmith anyway, and then maybe they'd get angry if I implemented something similarly. So the safest route was to stay away and do Stacksmith.

-- Uli Kusterer
"The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
http://stacksmith.org

On 07 May 2016, at 23:58, Andrew Ferguson andrewferguson500@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List> wrote:
> A good example of this would be Uli's thoughts in a message to this group on 23/11/2013 entitled "A script editor without scripts, that learns".

I think that was actually a message to the Stacksmith Yahoo group. For those wondering, I'll just copy it in.


Cheers,
-- Uli Kusterer
"The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
http://stacksmith.org



> A script editor without scripts, that learns
>

This is exciting. I downloaded it but it doesn't run on Lion (I'm still using 10.7.5) Is there an older version available to download?


On 07/05/2016, at 19:40, Uli Kusterer Witness.of.TeachText@[redacted].net[HyperCard] wrote:

> On 07 May 2016, at 23:58, Andrew Ferguson andrewferguson500@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List> wrote:
> > A good example of this would be Uli's thoughts in a message to this group on 23/11/2013 entitled "A script editor without scripts, that learns".
>
> I think that was actually a message to the Stacksmith Yahoo group. For those wondering, I'll just copy it in.
>
> Cheers,
> -- Uli Kusterer
> "The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere..."
> http://stacksmith.org
>
> > A script editor without scripts, that learns
> >

On 08 May 2016, at 01:20, Haroldo Mauro hmauro@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List> wrote:
> This is exciting. I downloaded it but it doesn't run on Lion (I'm still using 10.7.5) Is there an older version available to download?

No, there sadly isn't. At this stage in development, (before even 1.0) the application changes so much between releases, that keeping around older versions doesn't really make sense. They'd just be broken.

Sorry,
-- Uli Kusterer
https://stacksmith.org <https://stacksmith.org/>;

I understand. Thanks. I'll wait until I get a new computer by the end of this year. For now Lion takes care of all my needs.

On 08/05/2016, at 06:52, Uli Kusterer Witness.of.TeachText@[redacted].net[HyperCard] wrote:

> On 08 May 2016, at 01:20, Haroldo Mauro hmauro@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List> wrote:
>
>> This is exciting. I downloaded it but it doesn't run on Lion (I'm still using 10.7.5) Is there an older version available to download?
>
> No, there sadly isn't. At this stage in development, (before even 1.0) the application changes so much between releases, that keeping around older versions doesn't really make sense. They'd just be broken.
>
> Sorry,
> -- Uli Kusterer
> https://stacksmith.org
>
>

The thing about livecod is ... they broke the u/i. Alain's u/i is no longer compatible, and good luck editing their gui. :/

Metacard had an ugly u/i but you could really edit it and modify it yourself.

I really dislike the livecode u/i.

About hypercard, I think jscard or hypervariety are the future. The reality is, even if users have permissions which allow them to download and execute binaries there is so much malware these days that expecting people to client-side executables is ... unlikely. Add to that the fact that you have to download, install, agree to license, and possibly submit your email and name - ugh.

So yeah, i think everything will wind up being server side, with form validation being about the only client side thing.

I could be worng but it is what i think.

And I really really really hate the livecode u/i. Thanks for breaking it :/

All.


Hmmm. I like the LC interface. Much more than HC's, in fact.


I wish we could just take a small portion of LC (LC light)? I remember years ago you could select a "simple" instance of Excel, where menus were reduced to core functionality only, and thousands of gadgets were hidden. I use excel a lot, but only 5% of it. If I had to learn it all in order to use it at all, I probably would go back to quill pens.


I have an idea what LiveCode would think of this, as a separate work by independent authors. Likely they would not tolerate it at all, even if they could be assured that it would work perfectly. This is just a pipe dream, therefore, but would address the complexity concerns that Uli and Alain have raised.


I develop only for desktop, do not use database or xml, and do not publish or extract stuff to or from the web. So I use only a fraction of LC, though I think I do pretty well with it. I use LC "light".


The Mac-only limitation is a deal killer. HC only gained traction because it was given for free, and Mac users at the time were adventurous enough to explore it. I despise Windows, but understand the need for it.


So, going back to the beginning, if such a new xTalk could be developed, cross-platform, and delivered for a reasonable price, would it take the world by storm? LC itself still suffers from the same perceptual issues HC did, that it is not a "real' language, rather just some sort of hobbyist tool with some cute features.


Sigh.


Craig



-----Original Message-----
From: Uli Kusterer Witness.of.TeachText@[redacted].net[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2016 5:54 am
Subject: Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?






On 08 May 2016, at 01:20, Haroldo Mauro hmauro@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List> wrote:


This is exciting. I downloaded it but it doesn't run on Lion (I'm still using 10.7.5) Is there an older version available to download?

On the subject of reducing functionalities:
* GOOD idea* what about a global property called "userLevel" ?
* userLevel "browsing" = only what is needed for user to use the stack* userLevel "editing" = only what is needed for user to edit the content of the stack* userLevel "drawing" = only what is needed for drawing.
* userLevel "authoring" = normal + create objects + resize them ....* userLevel "scripting" = programming tools come to the forefront.* userLevel "advanced" = the really complex not-often-used stuff.
What do you think of this suggestion ?
Alain

From: "DunbarX@[redacted].com[HyperCard]" <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard-Mailing-List
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?

  All.
Hmmm. I like the LC interface. Much more than HC's, in fact.
I wish we could just take a small portion of LC (LC light)?  I remember years ago you could select a "simple" instance of Excel, where menus were reduced to core functionality only, and thousands of gadgets were hidden. I use excel a lot, but only 5% of it. If I had to learn it all in order to use it at all, I probably would go back to quill pens.
I have an idea what LiveCode would think of this, as a separate work by independent authors. Likely they would not tolerate it at all, even if they could be assured that it would work perfectly. This is just a pipe dream, therefore, but would address the complexity concerns that Uli and Alain have raised.
I develop only for desktop, do not use database or xml, and do not publish or extract stuff to or from the web. So I use only a fraction of LC, though I think I do pretty well with it. I use LC "light".
The Mac-only limitation is a deal killer. HC only gained traction because it was given for free, and Mac users at the time were adventurous enough to explore it. I despise Windows, but understand the need for it.
So, going back to the beginning, if such a new xTalk could be developed, cross-platform, and delivered for a reasonable price, would it take the world by storm? LC itself still suffers from the same perceptual issues HC did, that it is not a "real' language, rather just some sort of hobbyist tool with some cute features.
Sigh.
Craig
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Uli Kusterer Witness.of.TeachText@[redacted].net[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2016 5:54 am
Subject: Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?

  On 08 May 2016, at 01:20, Haroldo Mauro hmauro@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List> wrote:
This is exciting. I downloaded it but it doesn't run on Lion (I'm still using 10.7.5) Is there an older version available to download?


 No, there sadly isn't. At this stage in development, (before even 1.0) the application changes so much between releases, that keeping around older versions doesn't really make sense. They'd just be broken.
Sorry,-- Uli Kustererhttps://stacksmith.org

Alain.


You know, I wonder why LC does not have this at all.


It surely led many into HC, because it was not daunting to run your own rolodex. And if you saw, or heard about these other goodies, you could step into them as needed, or as you were able.


Or as you got bored with your current userLevel.


I might make this a feature request for the LC team. This begs the issue of Uli's efforts, though.


Craig


* GOOD idea
* what about a global property called "userLevel" ?

* userLevel "browsing" = only what is needed for user to use the stack
* userLevel "editing" = only what is needed for user to edit the content of the stack

* userLevel "draw ing" = only what is needed for drawing.

* userLevel "authoring" = normal + create objects + resize them ....
* userLevel "scripting" = programming tools come to the forefront.

Indeed, Craig.
With "userLevel", HyperCard made it possible to ramp-up to features when you're ready for them.
If I give it some thought, and eventually I will, I could come-up with more ease-of-use suggestions.
I am prepared to revamp the GUI, and share this work with the Livecode community.
But, despite the fact that I have similarly crafted FreeGUI, in the past, with MetaCard,
this time I'm going to need someone who is familiar with the inner-workings of LC: frontScript, etc.
If Runtime is not interested and/or no one helps,
then it'll be easier for me to do something-else from scratch,likely with Uli.
Waiting for replies,Alain

From: "DunbarX@[redacted].com[HyperCard]" <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard-Mailing-List
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?

  Alain.
You know, I wonder why LC does not have this at all.
It surely led many into HC, because it was not daunting to run your own rolodex. And if you saw, or heard about these other goodies, you could step into them as needed, or as you were able.
Or as you got bored with your current userLevel.
I might make this a feature request for the LC team. This begs the issue of Uli's efforts, though.
Craig

* GOOD idea* what about a global property called "userLevel" ?
* userLevel "browsing" = only what is needed for user to use the stack* userLevel "editing" = only what is needed for user to edit the content of the stack* userLevel "draw ing" = only what is needed for drawing.
* userLevel "authoring" = normal + create objects + resize them ....* userLevel "scripting" = programming tools come to the forefront.



-----Original Message-----
From: Alain Farmer alain_farmer@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
Sent: Mon, May 9, 2016 7:04 pm
Subject: Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?

  On the subject of reducing functionalities:
* GOOD idea* what about a global property called "userLevel" ?
* userLevel "browsing" = only what is needed for user to use the stack* userLevel "editing" = only what is needed for user to edit the content of the stack* userLevel "draw ing" = only what is needed for drawing.
* userLevel "authoring" = normal + create objects + resize them ....* userLevel "scripting" = programming tools come to the forefront.* userLevel "advanced" = the really complex not-often-used stuff.
What do you think of this suggestion ?
Alain

From: "DunbarX@[redacted].com[HyperCard]" <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard-Mailing-List
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?

  All.
Hmmm. I like the LC interface. Much more than HC's, in fact.
I wish we could just take a small portion of LC (LC light)?  I remember years ago you could select a "simple" instance of Excel, where menus were reduced to core functionality only, and thousands of gadgets were hidden. I use excel a lot, but only 5% of it. If I had to learn it all in order to use it at all, I probably would go back to quill pens.
I have an idea what LiveCode would think of this, as a separate work by independent authors. Likely they would not tolerate it at all, even if they could be assured that it would work perfectly. This is just a pipe dream, therefore, but would address the complexity concerns that Uli and Alain have raised.
I develop only for desktop, do not use database or xml, and do not publish or extract stuff to or from the web. So I use only a fraction of LC, though I think I do pretty well with it. I use LC "light".
The Mac-only limitation is a deal killer. HC only gained traction because it was given for free, and Mac users at the time were adventurous enough to explore it. I despise Windows, but understand the need for it.
So, going back to the beginning, if such a new xTalk could be developed, cross-platform, and delivered for a reasonable price, would it take the world by storm? LC itself still suffers from the same perceptual issues HC did, that it is not a "real' language, rather just some sort of hobbyist tool with some cute features.
Sigh.
Craig
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Uli Kusterer Witness.of.TeachText@[redacted].net[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2016 5:54 am
Subject: Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?

  On 08 May 2016, at 01:20, Haroldo Mauro hmauro@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List> wrote:
This is exciting. I downloaded it but it doesn't run on Lion (I'm still using 10.7.5) Is there an older version available to download?


 No, there sadly isn't. At this stage in development, (before even 1.0) the application changes so much between releases, that keeping around older versions doesn't really make sense. They'd just be broken.
Sorry,-- Uli Kustererhttps://stacksmith.org

I posted in the LC forums:


http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27246



I hope I did justice to the current discussion here, and did so mainly to see what would come back from the community. There are a lot of old HC'ers there....


Craig



-----Original Message-----
From: Alain Farmer alain_farmer@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
Sent: Mon, May 9, 2016 10:28 pm
Subject: Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?







Indeed, Craig.


With "userLevel", HyperCard made it possible to ramp-up to features when you're ready for them.



If I give it some thought, and eventually I will, I could come-up with more ease-of-use suggestions.


I am prepared to revamp the GUI, and share this work with the Livecode community.


But, despite the fact that I have similarly crafted FreeGUI, in the past, with MetaCard,


this time I'm going to need someone who is familiar with the inner-workings of LC: frontScript, etc.


If Runtime is not interested and/or no one helps,

then it'll be easier for me to do something-else from scratch,
likely with Uli.


Waiting for replies,
Alain







From: "DunbarX@[redacted].com[HyperCard]" <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard-Mailing-List
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?








Alain.


You know, I wonder why LC does not have this at all.


It surely led many into HC, because it was not daunting to run your own rolodex. And if you saw, or heard about these other goodies, you could step into them as needed, or as you were able.


Or as you got bored with your current userLevel.


I might make this a feature request for the LC team. This begs the issue of Uli's efforts, though.


Craig


* GOOD idea
* what about a global property called "userLevel" ?

* userLevel "browsing" = only what is needed for user to use the stack
* userLevel "editing" = only what is needed for user to edit the content of the stack

* userLevel "draw ing" = only what is needed for drawing.

* userLevel "authoring" = normal + create objects + resize them ....
* userLevel "scripting" = programming tools come to the forefront.

FreeCard was written in LiveCode, which has a pretty good track record for backward compatibility. Very few tokens have been deprecated - which scripts in FreeCard aren't working?



---In HyperCard-Mailing-List, <eric.engle@...> wrote :

The thing about livecod is ... they broke the u/i. Alain's u/i is no longer compatible, and good luck editing their gui. :/

A modernised UI was one of the stated goals of the kickstarter project.
This hasn't been started yet, though, and I can't find any mention of it in
the LiveCode roadmap.

Perhaps when the LiveCode team get round to this, we could contribute?

On 10 May 2016 at 05:19, Ambassador@[redacted].com[HyperCard] <
HyperCard-Mailing-List> wrote:

>
>
> FreeCard was written in LiveCode, which has a pretty good track record for
> backward compatibility. Very few tokens have been deprecated - which
> scripts in FreeCard aren't working?
>
>
>
> ---In HyperCard-Mailing-List, <eric.engle@...> wrote :
>
> The thing about livecod is ... they broke the u/i. Alain's u/i is no
> longer compatible, and good luck editing their gui. :/
>
>
>

Andrew Ferguson wrote:
> A modernised UI was one of the stated goals of
> the kickstarter project. This hasn't been started
> yet, though, and I can't find any mention of it in
> the LiveCode roadmap.


Thanks for noting that.


One of the challenges in delivering LiveCode for seven platforms, esp. with ongoing changes from OS vendors like Apple's requirement for 64-bit Mac, dropping QT for Windows, and IPv6 for iOS, is that peripheral activities like maintaining the Roapmap sometimes get less attention than would be ideal while the team is focused on coding.


Still, very useful to have that item on the Roadmap, and I just dropped a note to the Open Source Team Lead there to request that it be included again as it was in earlier iterations.




> Perhaps when the LiveCode team get round to this,
> we could contribute?


Pull requests on the IDE are coming in from the community now. I've submitted a few fixes myself, as have many others along with some enhancements, and the community has been very active in recent weeks with documentation refinements.


That said, what's being proposed here in this thread is beyond refining the LC IDE, more about creating an alternative user experience.


Given the tremendous expense involved in maintaining and enhancing the LC engine for so many platforms, I believe the strongest business case for the core dev team is to continue focusing on making one IDE as capable as it can be.


But I do see value in providing multiple authoring environments based on the LiveCode engine. And since all that's needed is xTalk scripting, a community of xTalk scripters is well suited for the task.


Indeed, one of the longest-running open source projects in the LiveCode community has been the MetaCard IDE. And to varying degrees we've seen a few others as well, like rIDE and my devolution, in addition to Alain's FreeGUI (please pardon my using the wrong name for that project in my previous post; it's too bad Yahoo doesn't allow edits for things like that).


Even if making an IDE on top of an existing xTalk engine is orders of magnitude less work than also making an xTalk engine to run it on, it's still a bit of work.


While there are some folks still using the MetaCard IDE, the core maintenance team has largely moved on to making plugins that modify the LC IDE, as I did with devolution, because replicating all the many parts and pieces needed to support all the features available became increasingly difficult to justify the time for as the engine's capabilities continued to grow.


So if someone were to pursue the goal of delivering an alternative user experience for LiveCode's xTalk engine, the choice would be to either:


a) Create the whole thing from scratch.
- or -
b) Build it as a plugin, using existing IDE components where desirable.


The benefit with option b) is that it allows one to begin work immediately and start benefiting from new designs today. And as it progresses, an alternative UI can take on ever greater capabilities, perhaps one day completely replacing everything in the IDE.


You might be surprised to discover just how moddable the LC IDE is. While most of HyperCard's UI was hard-coded in its engine, everything in LC's IDE is written in xTalk, all fully modifiable.


For example, here's the development environment I work in every day:
http://fourthworld.net/lc/rg-lc-ide.png


I'm not proposing that as a solution here. In fact, it's very much designed to serve almost the opposite goal of what's being discussed here, aimed as it is at very experienced devs - everything in the IDE is tucked away out of view, leaving most of the screen available for the stuff I'm building, with tools easily available but only when I need them.


That particular toolset isn't an ideal fit for everyone, but it does serve as an example of how far one can take modding the IDE with a simple plugin that takes only a few hours to write.


If Alain's FreeGUI has a look and feel that fits the goals being discussed here, I'd be happy to help provide pointers to how to get it - or anything else this community wants to build - up and running with LiveCode's xTalk engine.

This feature has been incorporated into the widgets feature. In the
future, all controls should become widgets, which should make them
native and hence automatically compatible with modern UI's. I vaguely
remember Kevin or Mark Wad. talking about it during a webinar, perhaps a
year ago. They may have changed their strategy again, but I don't think so.

Kind regards,

Mark Schonewille
http://economy-x-talk.com
https://www.facebook.com/marksch

Buy the most extensive book on the
LiveCode language:
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com

Op 10-May-16 om 14:38 schreef Andrew Ferguson
andrewferguson500@[redacted].com[HyperCard]:
>
>
> A modernised UI was one of the stated goals of the kickstarter project.
> This hasn't been started yet, though, and I can't find any mention of it
> in the LiveCode roadmap.
>
> Perhaps when the LiveCode team get round to this, we could contribute?
>
> On 10 May 2016 at 05:19, Ambassador@[redacted].com[HyperCard]
> <HyperCard-Mailing-List <mailto:HyperCard-Mailing-List>> wrote:
>
> __
>
>
> FreeCard was written in LiveCode, which has a pretty good track
> record for backward compatibility. Very few tokens have been
> deprecated - which scripts in FreeCard aren't working?
>
>
>
> ---In HyperCard-Mailing-List <mailto:HyperCard-Mailing-List>,
> <eric.engle@...> wrote :
>
> The thing about livecod is ... they broke the u/i. Alain's u/i is no
> longer compatible, and good luck editing their gui. :/
>
>
>
>
>

Here is another suggestion:
Speech-to-text, in english, synched with xCard's message box.
Speak xTalk and the xCard reacts accordingly.
go to next cardclick at the loc of button "My demo"send mouseUp to button "Save"doMenu "Print this card"
doMenu is not currently supported by LC but it was in other xCards.
I am currently working on what I am describing here.
Alain

From: "Mark Schonewille m.schonewille@[redacted].com[HyperCard]" <HyperCard-Mailing-List>
To: HyperCard-Mailing-List
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [HC] Want to help build a new HyperCard?

  This feature has been incorporated into the widgets feature. In the
future, all controls should become widgets, which should make them
native and hence automatically compatible with modern UI's. I vaguely
remember Kevin or Mark Wad. talking about it during a webinar, perhaps a
year ago. They may have changed their strategy again, but I don't think so.

Kind regards,

Mark Schonewille
http://economy-x-talk.com
https://www.facebook.com/marksch

Buy the most extensive book on the
LiveCode language:
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com

Op 10-May-16 om 14:38 schreef Andrew Ferguson
andrewferguson500@[redacted].com[HyperCard]:
>
>
> A modernised UI was one of the stated goals of the kickstarter project.
> This hasn't been started yet, though, and I can't find any mention of it
> in the LiveCode roadmap.
>
> Perhaps when the LiveCode team get round to this, we could contribute?
>
> On 10 May 2016 at 05:19, Ambassador@[redacted].com[HyperCard]
> <HyperCard-Mailing-List <mailto:HyperCard-Mailing-List>> wrote:
>
> __
>
>
> FreeCard was written in LiveCode, which has a pretty good track
> record for backward compatibility. Very few tokens have been
> deprecated - which scripts in FreeCard aren't working?
>
>
>
> ---In HyperCard-Mailing-List <mailto:HyperCard-Mailing-List>,
> <eric.engle@...> wrote :
>
> The thing about livecod is ... they broke the u/i. Alain's u/i is no
> longer compatible, and good luck editing their gui. :/
>
>
>
>
>